DECODING LENORMAND WITH ANNA ANDERSON

Anna: Good morning, good evening, wherever you are, across the world and the universe. Welcome to my Quantum Living Podcast at the intersection of science and spirituality. I'm your host, Anna Anderson, an inquisitive soul on a lifetime mission to find out how life really works.

This podcast is about bringing the spiritual, metaphysical and esoteric concepts down to the practical level so that we can learn and apply them in our daily life to make it a little easier and raise our consciousness to the next level. Whether you are listening to this show while driving or commuting, doing chores around the house, relaxing on a couch or flying in a spaceship across the galaxy, I hope you'll enjoy today's episode. Okay, let's begin.

Hello and welcome back to Quantum Living. Today's episode is a bit unusual, as I will be talking about something that came into my reality only a few months ago. Lenormand Oracle Cards. I have been working with Tarot for many years and have always been interested in Oracle Cards, Divination, etc., perusing Oracle decks in the new-age shops and online. And yet, up until August this year, I have never seen Lenormand or heard about it, it never came up in my Google searches. Given that it has been around for a very long time and my interest in Divination, it is inexplicable that it simply didn't exist in my reality up until now. Not possible. The only conclusion I can draw is that around August this year, I made a quantum jump to a different timeline, a parallel reality that has Lenormand in it. And by the way, I've done a couple of episodes on quantum jumps with Cynthia Sue Larson, so if you are interested in this topic, you might wish to listen to those episodes as well. 

Suddenly, I saw Lenormand everywhere. A plethora of Lenormand videos on YouTube, Lenormand websites in Google searches, Lenormand courses, manuals, blogs, you name it, it's there. Of course, I quickly bought a beautiful deck on Amazon and started learning Lenormand. Immediately I felt a much stronger connection with it than with Tarot for some reason. It is very different, more esoteric and more accurate in my view than Tarot. I have done a couple of episodes on this podcast on Tarot, so I've decided to find a Lenormand expert and invite them to my show to explore this mysterious oracle.

My special guest today is Layla. Layla is the founder of Lenormand Reader. She's been reading and studying Lenormand for over years and offers one of the most comprehensive programs to master Lenormand. She also has a YouTube channel where she offers tutorials and forecasts using Lenormand. Layla aspires to raise awareness about Lenormand and share its gems with the world. She invites people from every walk of life to discover and learn the unique Lenormand oracle and if you do, you might never look back. You will find more information about Layla and her work on my podcast website at QuantumLivingPodcast.com.

Hello Layla, thank you so much for your time. It's so lovely to have you on my show.

Layla: Hello Anna, thank you so much for having me on your show. I'm really excited about this podcast episode.

Anna: Thank you. Yes, it will be a really interesting conversation given what I said in my intro, Lenormand is fairly new to me, which is really, really surprising and I would like to find out more about it and bring all this information to my audience. So to start our conversation, could you please share with us a little bit about your personal story? How did you become interested in Lenormand cards?

Layla: I started Lenormand many years ago when I was a university student. I was studying philosophy. I was in my master's program at the time. At the time I was doing a lot of studies around these spiritual matters, everything from decluttering to affirmations, which I also specialize in, and related matters, meditations, and yes I do practice yoga, I’m vegan and things like that. And I started off with card reading like most of us reading tarot and other oracle cards. And just like you Anna, I was browsing through the decks online, offline, in libraries and I came across the Lenormand deck. The very first deck that I landed on is Titania's Fortune cards. It's a very beautiful deck and it remains my favorite deck today. So it's really imprinted on me. And I found that just from the very first layout that I drew with Lenormand it has a way of speaking in a very direct way. So I was immediately hooked and I started from there. I started reading and studying and watching as much as I can. And I felt that the Lenormand world is a bit choppy. So there isn't a comprehensive or consistent approach. There seems to be many different perspectives, many different opinions about how to interpret the cards, the combinations, and draw the layouts.

So from there I decided to create my own system and I started to build my card combinations dictionary and to study the layouts like the Grand Tableau with more detail. Many years later, I decided to start a hobby, a YouTube channel with my cards. I would read offline, but I decided to go online. From there it grew and I discovered that a lot of people have similar questions that I had when I was discovering and learning Lenormand. A lot of people had the same struggles that I had, not sure how best to do this or that, not sure how to interpret the cards. So at that point I decided to polish my manuals, my personal approach into what is today the Master Guides, a best-selling three-book bundle as I call it. And from there I went on to build the course. So my focus has shifted to teaching Lenormand more than anything else, although, of course I still read on YouTube online and sometimes offline as well.

Anna: Lovely. Thank you so much for sharing. Just before we move on to Lenormand itself, could you please give us a brief overview of Cartomancy? What is Cartomancy for those of our listeners who may not be familiar with it?

Layla: I think that's a really good starting point, Anna. Cartomancy is a system of divination that uses cards, but mainly symbols on the cards. They don't have to strictly be cards. I consider Runes to be something like a Cartomantic method. So a Cartomantic method is based on a specific number of symbols within a deck or let's say a bunch of stones like Runes. And the cards are chosen at random for a specific layout, and they are interpreted within the boundaries of that layout. So you draw the random symbols out of a specific set of symbols. So it's not like staring into the sky and doing cloud divination, looking for symbols that might show up randomly. You are drawing the insights from a predefined set of symbols that are set in cards. And so the card format is practical because it's easy to shuffle, it's easy to manipulate and handle, and this improves what I call the principle of randomness. So randomness is very important in divination. Divination is the opposite of science. Science looks for meaning through patterns. Divination looks for meaning through the random. So any system of divination needs to rely on unbiased random decks or other sortilège kind of systems where you can draw a certain number of symbols in answer to your question and read them. And again, this is different to astrology, for example, which is based on a very different approach. The system of the skies and the planets is orderly. It is not random. So very different systems.

Anna: Oh, lovely. Thank you so much for explaining. This is really interesting. And this is the first time when I heard someone talking about randomness as an important aspect, if you like, of divination. So thank you. So now let's talk about Lenormand itself. Could you please give us a brief overview of how it compares to Tarot and how it can be read in many different ways? I know it's perhaps a bit challenging task because you have written pages and pages about this Oracle deck and there is so much about it that I would like to refer our listeners to visit your website and get all the information there because clearly it is not possible to include everything on the podcast. But as an introduction, as an overview, what is it comparing to Tarot and how it can be read in many different ways?

Layla: I think that's important to appreciate the differences. Lenormand is not just another deck. I think a lot of my students, when they come to the course without a lot of experience with Lenormand, they expect it to be another deck, just different cards and essentially laid out in a different way. Lenormand is fundamentally different from other cartomantic systems. From a superficial level, like a high overview level, the Lenormand deck is much smaller than the Tarot. It is made up of only cards. The cards are read only upright whereas the Tarot is often read upright and reversed. Also, the symbols on the Lenormand are from everyday life. There isn't really an occult or an esoteric system or language that needs to be decoded first in order to understand the cards. This is very different from the Tarot because the Tarot is quite loaded with a lot of these occult and esoteric symbols. Of course, there are the four suits and what the suits represent and a lot of the design on, let's say, the Rider-Waite deck. And of course, the major arcana, which are even more loaded with these symbols than the suits.

The Lenormand cards are very simple in terms of their symbolism. You have everyday objects, everyday things, and what that does is that it makes it that much easier to connect with a card. So for example, you have the heart symbol, you have the Ring, the Clover, the Tree, the Coffin, the Sun, the Moon, very everyday objects. So there isn't a layer of a language of esoteric [symbols] that needs to be first decoded. So I think this is part of the reason why people feel that Lenormand can be insightful or as they say, in your face. This is very commonly said about Lenormand that they're in your face. So that's from a superficial overview, if you like. On a deeper level, Lenormand operates very differently from other decks because it is essentially read by combining the cards together. This is not optional in Lenormand. If you want to read Lenormand, you have to combine the cards. So you don't read the cards individually. And what that does is it drives the way Lenormand layouts are done. Lenormand layouts are done in what we call a tableau style configuration. Tableau style means that we have a bunch of cards, few or many, that are laid out in a geometric shape so that we have lines and columns and diagonals. And what we do is we read all of these lines and each of these lines give us part of the story that is unfolding in the reading. And you will notice from tableau style layouts that cards, or any one card, is read over and over as part of different lines and part of different combinations.

This is very different from other decks like the tarot and oracle cards where in a tarot layout, a card is dedicated to a specific spot, a specific position in a layout. For example, you would have a card for the past, a card for the present, a card for the future, a card for other people, or advice and outcome. And the card is read specifically for that position. In Lenormand, this doesn't happen. Cards are read as part of a story over and over. And layouts in Lenormand do not have specific position meanings like they do in other cards. So when people start to discover the mechanics and the dynamics of how to read with Lenormand, it becomes revealed to them that Lenormand is fundamentally different from other practices. So it changes your interpretation skills. It changes your approach to reading with cards. And it could be a really lovely eye opener because it sort of expands on what I call the interpretive imagination. I invite people to discover this for themselves.

Anna: Thank you. A couple of points here, a couple of follow up questions. Firstly, could you also speak to the three elements on each card that contain information and can be interpreted in various types of readings? And also to the type of reading that reads not only the card itself in combination with other cards, but also looks at the placement of the card, which is allocated to one of the cards. And I just mentioned this because you said that the placement of the cards is not relevant. So perhaps this is a different type of reading or a different school of reading Lenormand. So could you please speak to that? What is actually showing on each card and the placement thing?

Layla: Yes, that's a really good point, Anna. So let's start with the first point. What is on the card? Yes, there are three main parts of a card, if you like. There is the main symbol and then there are two other parts. They're called insets. The main inset is the pip, which is associated with the symbol or that card. The pip is essentially the playing card suits. So you have the four commonly known ones, which are the hearts, diamonds, clubs, and spades. And every Lenormand card is associated with a number of that suit or a court card of that suit. Now something to keep in mind, and that's a bit different with Lenormand, is that because there's only 36 cards, the full playing card deck is not included. So you have the aces up to number six, and then you have the king, queens and jacks. You do not have the other numbers and you do not have knights like you do in the Tarot. So that's something [different].

The other thing about the pips that I'll mention quickly is that in Lenormand, it's the club suit that is challenging, not the spades. Whereas normally it is the spades that are challenging. The spade is associated with the suit of swords in the Tarot and the suit of swords is the challenging suit in the Tarot. So standardly, and not just in the Tarot, but other systems, the spades tend to be the challenging suit, but not with Lenormand. With Lenormand, you will notice that it's the clubs. The other part of the card is the card number, and that's pretty straightforward. It's cards 1 through 36. And so each card has a number - 1 through 36. The Rider is card 1, and the Cross is card 36. People might notice if people come across my work, that I like to order the cards alphabetically in my books because I find it easier to refer to, especially when you're starting out. It's easier. But of course, I respect the order of the cards, so the card number. So these are the three parts of the card, the main symbol and a couple of insets, the pips suit associated with the card and the card number.

Another inset that appears sometimes is a quote that's found in the Red Owl deck. The Red Owl deck is one of the older decks, as far as we know. And it carries these quotes that give you an idea about the card, an indication about what the card is or what it means. And you will also notice on these quotes that they will give you an indication of what the card means if it's near or far. So that's a technique called, I simply call it the Near and Far technique, and it applies in a Grand Tableau. We don't have to get into the details of this, but essentially the significator is either the Man or Woman and represents the person being read for. And depending on how far or how near other cards are to it, it tells you, it gives you more insights. So you want the positive cards to be closer to the significator and you want the challenging cards to be farther. That's a straightforward interpretation, and then there are other nuances. So that's one technique.

Now, in terms of the position that you were referring to, Anna, you are referring to a specific layout called the Lenormand Houses. So the Houses, that's a really fascinating layout and it's actually not a Tableau style layout, although it looks like one. So what happens in the Houses is that you have two sets of cards. You have one set, one deck that is used to represent the Houses and the other deck is used to draw cards randomly on top of the Houses. So what are the Houses? The Houses are the cards themselves, but what they tell us is they tell us an area of life. So for example, you use the House card, not to confuse matters, but it's card number four, the House, that tells you what's happening with home and family. Okay, so that's card four and it's the House of the House, the House of home and family. So you draw your second deck, you draw it randomly and you draw one card on top of the House and you see then what is going on with home and family. Another example is, let's say, the Lily. If we take the Lily to represent your career and your life direction, it is the House of career and life Direction. You draw your second deck randomly, a card on top of the Lily. Let's say you get the Sun, it tells you things are beautiful in your career or you're about to head in a wonderful phase of your life and so on.

Anna: Thank you. And this is what I really love about Lenormand and what caught my attention is that it is a multi-dimensional or multi-layered divination oracle that you can read in so many different ways and it gives you such rich information. Beautiful. Now, one of the key questions that usually comes up when people talk about Cartomancy and divination is the role of intuition and the sixth sense in oracle card readings. And there are different schools of thought. Some people believe that opening up your sixth sense or using your intuition, let alone having psychic skills, is really important in card readings. Others say that this is not the case and that you can read cards very well by mastering the deck or the particular oracle method. So, could you please share with us your thoughts on that and whether or not you are using your intuition in your own readings and what is your advice in your teachings?

Layla: Well, thank you for the question, Anna. I think it's an important question for any sort of divination that we do. But to start with the last point you make, in my teachings, I don't impose or add any other layers. I just deal with the card meanings in a more technical way and I offer as much as I can and know about the practice. And then what people want to do with the cards is completely up to them. How they want to read the cards is completely up to them. So, that's for my teaching approach with more technicality, if you like. In terms of how we use intuition and whether we should or shouldn't with the cards, I'm of the opinion that it's really hard to say because I don't think intuition is separate from the rest of our information processing system. I think it's very hard to separate our minds, our imagination with the symbols, our intelligence, our knowledge and experience and our intuition. I find it really hard to separate these. Of course, when you're solving a math problem or you're playing a game of chess, you're narrowing down on the more logical side of your brain. But when you're doing readings or even when you're making life decisions, going about your life every day, doing things with people, with your work, I think the way we make decisions, the way we interpret everything, I think it involves all of our information system together holistically. So, I find it difficult to separate. So, that's why I think it's a difficult question to answer. If you say, do you use your intuition or not, can you consciously say, for this question, I will not use my intuition, I will just interpret the cards as they are? Can we really say that we can't put our intuition aside? I'm not so sure. I think it's still part of the thinking process and the interaction and response we have to looking at these symbols.

Anna: Thank you. Thank you so much. And I'm loving your answer and your explanation, not only because I've actually, I have never heard it before, and I've been talking to many people, many guests and others about intuition and divination and psychic abilities. But I really love your point that intuition is really an integral part of our psyche and our thinking processes, and I totally agree with it. That being said, of course, people would have different levels of this intuitive input, if you like. But, psychic skills aside, the information itself is what it is. The cleanest, the best and most transparent and probably the most authentic reading. So, thank you. Now I'd like to go a bit deeper into the rabbit hole, as I like doing that, and talk about what influences which card or which cards are drawn from the deck or are spread out in a particular type of reading. And there are two possible scenarios in oracle card reading in my mind. Either the spread or a single card pulled from the deck are completely random, and you simply quote the meaning of the cards and you interpret the meaning of the cards in relation to the question, or they are influenced by what I call subtle energy or the spirit or the guides, whatever language people want to use. But some, if you like, external force to the reader to give you specific answers and advice. So, the question is, in a nutshell, how does it work?

Layla: So, I guess we're all seeking this answer, aren't we, Anna? So, I want to be transparent about this, I do not have supernatural beliefs. I do not assign anything that happens in the world to a supernatural force. I don't think it's outside of the universe or outside of the natural world. And here's what else I want to ask. So, I want to answer your question with a question: Does it make a difference what is the cause of what you're seeing to what you are seeing? Let's say you drew three cards and they are the Tree, Coffin, and House. You say, the reason I got the Tree, Coffin, and House is because my guides, my angels, God, something out there. Or you can say, well, it's just random. So, here's my point. My point is your explanation or my explanation or anyone's explanation for why things are the way they are does not change the fact that things are the way they are. And I think a good exercise to do in order to get a sense of this is to look at religions and how many different religions there are in the world and the relativism and the cultures. So, recently someone told me, you know, “it's Jesus”. She says “it's Jesus”. You know, “I nearly died and I saw Jesus and I came back and I know it's Jesus.” If you take someone with a near-death experience from, let's say, India or from Southeast Asia, they're not going to see Jesus. They're going to see Shiva or they're going to see one of their deities. So, this religious relativism is very helpful for telling us that people are going to see what they know of and they're going to assign an explanation to those things that they know of. And I think that's an important insight in terms of how to explain the world. I think there's a lot of relativism about this. And again, having an explanation or not does not change the facts as they are.

Anna: Thank you. And I absolutely agree with you. The reason why I ask this question and many other similar questions is purely my curiosity. I like to know how things work. I like to know the reasons behind things that work in one way or another. So, this is purely my curiosity. But in terms of the actual outcome, you are absolutely correct. The outcome is what it is. The reading is what it is. So, the source of the interpretation of the reading is really irrelevant other than it would satisfy my curiosity because I like to know how things work and why. So, that's why. But yes, I totally agree with you and thank you for your explanation.

Now, there are myriads of Tarot and Lenormand decks out there. I believe that every deck has a specific visual impact on the reading and working with the cards. For example, I like expressive images rather than symbolic. So, I always go for decks with expressive imagery. And when I got my first Lenormand deck, I got this most beautiful classic Lenormand, which I absolutely love. And when researching Lenormand online, I've seen many different decks. And none has ever appeared to me as much as this classic deck. I felt really drawn to it. And the same thing was with my Tarot. I've got a Tarot deck that is very expressive as opposed to symbolic. In fact, it's a rare out of print now deck by Jane Liley, Renaissance Tarot. I'm trying to get a new deck because mine is falling apart from being used so much over the years. So, my question is, what are your thoughts on the impact or relationship of the actual deck, its imagery, to the reader and the reading? I think it's a very personal matter.

Layla: I think it's very important to go for a deck that appeals to you. Obviously, you don't want to read and look at cards that you think are ugly. You want a deck that you think is beautiful or that you enjoy in some way or other. So, I think there's a lot of flexibility in this matter. And for me personally, what I like when it comes to Lenormand, I like simple decks. It's easy in Lenormand for some reason to have these really busy cards. I call them ‘busy’ cards when there's a lot of detail on the card. There's a lot of drawings and details and sometimes colors and things like that. And for me personally, I like a more minimalistic look because I like to connect with the symbol in a clearer and faster, more direct way. And that's actually the reason for why I've designed my deck the way it is. It's called the Silhouettes deck and it's very plain. Another motive for me personally is for my channel. I find that because Lenormand cards are a bit small, they tend to be on the smaller side in terms of size. It's important that they come through the camera in a clear way. So, I like the symbols to be clear and that they stand out on the card. So, that's my personal take on it. But yes, definitely it's important to go for a deck that you find visually appealing. Cartomancy is a visual practice, okay. It's not like clairaudience, working with sounds, music or other sensory experiences for divination purposes or otherwise. Cartomancy is very visual, so it's important to focus on that aspect of it.

I do want to mention though that in the Lenormand deck, there are some cards that can affect the meaning of the card depending on how they are designed. So, there's a few of them. But one, for example, is the Scythe. So, the Scythe is a sharp knife-like object, and a lot of readers will look at the cards that are on the side [of the Scythe] that is sharp. So, if you draw the Scythe in a line or in a Tableau, you look at the cards that are on the side that is sharp and some readers might interpret it as danger to that area. Another card like this is the Clouds where there is a dark side of the clouds and a lighter side of the Clouds on the card. And a lot of readers interpret the cards that are on the darker side of the Clouds. They are negatively affected, let's say in simplistic terms, and the cards on the bright side of the Clouds are more positively affected and so on. The Book, it can sometimes be represented as an open book or closed book. This can affect how you interpret the card. You might see the open book as a revelation of information and the closed book as a secret or information that is not yet revealed. So, there are a few cards like that in the Lenormand deck that, you know, if you're like an intermediate or more advanced reader, it might be something you take into consideration and you might have certain preferences about this.

Anna: Yes, thank you. This is a very important and very interesting point. And again, I have never come across this explanation and it does make sense, a lot of sense, which in fact links to my additional point in that to me, card reading is, when I mentioned the imagery, it is more than aesthetics. It is more than just visual. For some reason, the richer the image is on the card, the more information I seem to be getting from it. So, it goes beyond interpreting the meaning of the card. I feel I am more connected with the card and I'm just getting more information if you like. So, but this is, I agree that this is very personal, a very personal approach. So, thank you for that. Now, what makes a good Lenormand reader in terms of their skill, experience and ethics?

Layla: Yes, great question, Anna. I would say with Lenormand, what makes a good Lenormand reader is the ability to interpret the cards spontaneously to answer the question at hand. So, let me explain this a little bit. Lenormand cards have very basic symbols essentially. The Ring, the Coffin, the Sun, they're simple symbols. So, there is skill in stretching a card's meaning so that it makes sense for different areas of life, for different questions. And actually, this really aligns with the point you were just saying. You were saying you like to have more things on the cards because it inspires you to expand on the meaning. So, if you don't have that on the card, you should be able to have that in your mind. You should be able to take an essential meaning or a main, general meaning and expand on it or make it more specific depending on the question or area that you are answering and reading about. And I call this correspondences. It's a fancy word I use,

but it's not as fancy as it seems when you get into my readings and the practice.

So, correspondences are essentially the meaning that a card can take on in different contexts. So, let's take an example. Here's an easy example. The Fish in Lenormand is the card of money. Okay. Now, what does the Fish mean in terms of love? What does the Fish mean in terms of health? What does it mean in other areas that you might come up with, let's say spiritually? So, you start with a fundamental or essential meaning of the card and from there, you are able to expand on the meaning of the card so that you can talk about different areas using this card. So, these different meanings that we can expand on from the main meaning of a card is what I call correspondences. And so, I think a good Lenormand reader is a reader who is able to interpret the cards to answer the question in a spontaneous way.

Anna: So, when you mentioned the Fish as an example, I would think that an expanded meaning to other areas of life would be abundance. So, abundance, expansion, which are concepts linked to money. So, that's how you would expand the meaning, say, in relationships, career, health, et cetera. Would you agree?

Layla: Absolutely. The Fish is very much about abundance and expansion. But if you were to look at something a bit more specific, let's say timelines. So, how fast or slow is the Fish in terms of timelines?

Anna: It depends. It depends on the Fish.

Layla: Yes, absolutely. Some readers like to use the card number and they would say, well, you know, card 36 means 36 days, weeks, months, et cetera. I don't think this system works, to be honest. I think it's better to work with the essence of the card. But let's say the Fish in terms of a health condition. So, the idea of abundance doesn't really apply in terms of a health condition. Instead, the Fish, because it is associated with water and fluids, it tends to be associated actually with the urinary system. And it can also point to issues like drinking too much, for example, or having other fluid-related problems. So, these are ways that we can expand on a card's meaning. And again, it's all coming down to the fundamental essence of the card and the features of the symbol.

Anna: Mm. Lovely. Thank you. So, now, what about ethics in Lenormand readings for clients, for other people?

Layla: I don't think there's a fundamental difference between ethics in Lenormand and ethics in other methods, whether it is cartomancy or something else. I think ethics are a very important part of reading. It is something that we talk about in the later parts of the Certification Program in my courses. And I think we can all agree on some common guidelines, the simple ones like you would read for adults, you would read with permission, respecting privacy of the reading, and also not reading the same question over and over, not doing readings for things you already know what the answer is. And simple guidelines like this, I think they apply to most of us.

So, I think the ethics, if you want to call it ethics, the more significant aspect of this part of being a reader are, in my opinion, your understanding of life in a general way. So, questions like free will and predestination, and if you think that the cards reveal a future that is set in stone or not. I think these are the bigger questions that affect your ethics and that I invite every reader, no matter what they read or what tool they use, to think about. So, I can tell you that we do not have answers to these big questions. I studied philosophy, I know the history of it all, the question of free will, the question of predestination, and the all-knowing god or divinity, these are not questions that are settled. So, you're going to have to make a certain degree of decision for yourself about the place of divination in your life and what it's there to do for you and for your clients and for others whom you read for.

Anna: Thank you. And this is, in fact, a very nice segway to my next question. But before I go there, just one final point about the ethics in reading for someone else. If you see or when you see some very negative, even quite serious event potentially coming up for the inquirer, do you normally package this information in some way or are you blunt or straightforward? What is your approach?

Layla: That's a great question, Anna, and I think whether you are a Tarot reader or a Lenormand reader or something else, this is a question that comes up. You do have some pretty dramatic cards in the Tarot, like the Death card and the ten of swords and maybe a couple of others. And you do have heavy-handed cards in the Lenormand as well, the Scythe and the Whip, especially when they come together. But here's my thoughts about this. What are the chances of something being extremely dramatic? Luckily in life, the probability of something extremely dramatic happening is very low. So it's not every day that there are dangerous accidents. It's not every day that there is a very tragic situation that unfolds. And so similarly, when challenging cards show up in the cards, in the layout, it might not be that extremely tragic situation that unfolds. So I think it's worth keeping this in mind and to avoid either an extremely dramatic or an extremely positive interpretation of the cards and instead remain more faithful to what is realistic and what is the probability of something so tragic happening. So unless the context or the question of this readee specifically has a serious situation in mind, unless that is the case, I think generally these challenging cards are not as challenging. And these very bright cards are not as bright. It's not going to be like we're going to reach heaven or we're going to go through an extremely terrible situation.

Anna: Now I would like to circle back to your previous comment about free will and destiny and what I am really interested in. And I know by now your view, broadly speaking, as you have expressed it about free will and predestination. And I do have some understanding at the spiritual level how things work, which obviously not everyone needs to agree with. But I would be really curious to find your view on the following. Predicting future events using Lenormand. And I'd like to start with the premise of my thinking and then ask two questions. So the premise that I'm coming from is that about ninety to ninety-five percent, roughly speaking, it is free will and only about five to percent at the most are events that I call non-negotiables that can't be changed and are not subject to our free will. And this premise obviously links to my belief in reincarnation, in the afterlife, in our souls blueprint, etc. So it goes beyond the actual divination topic. So my question is, a couple of questions related specifically to card reading, in particular Lenormand readings.

First of all, what is your view on predicting future events in both of these categories? So events that are fully subject to our free will and so they can change and do change. And if you were to accept the premise, even for the purpose of this conversation, of some events being set in stone in our life and on our timeline, how would you interpret and predict those events? And the second question is, when two readings done within, say, any timeframe, could be in a span of a couple of weeks or a couple of months, on the same question regarding the timing of an event, give different answers and the event itself is in that fixed and non-negotiable category? Because if it is subject to free will, of course, the answer and information coming through can and will be different. But if the event in question is in that what I call non-negotiable category, which is, I believe, is fixed on the timeline, what confuses me, and I've had many readings, is why the answer about the timing of an event that I know, for example, is in my life, in that non-negotiable category, changes and is different in every reading. Again, this, I think, links at some level to how readings actually work, so what influences the cards being drawn, and then the interpretation by the reader. So what are your thoughts on that?

Layla: So, Anna, the question about a timeline, that's a good one to bring up just in general, regardless of your thoughts about predestination and free will. Timing questions are very complex questions and very difficult to get right. As like to say, if divination would get timing right every time, divination would have replaced science a long time ago. Even people from the religions, from the three great religions, the monotheistic religions, when it comes to, for example, the end of days or the end times, they can never give you an answer about timing, but they can give you an idea about the sequence of events, for example, that they understand as leading, as being representative of the end times. But this idea of timing, as in when, even the supposedly greatest sources of spirituality cannot even answer that. So I like to say this all the time, when I can, that if divination got timing right - always - it would have replaced science a long time ago, because predicting with timing is the most powerful form of prediction. So from the get-go, predicting with timing, I don't think a lot of people get this right. I think if you get it right, it tends to be an accident more often than not. I would be careful about people who sell themselves as being able to predict timing accurately. I think everyone should have a healthy dose of skepticism in this area.

Now to the first part of your question, I think it depends on what you consider to be non-negotiable versus negotiable. So I'm not sure what you have in mind, but I believe that some things about the world are definitely not negotiable. For example, gravity. We fall down, we don't fall up. We are born with two arms and two legs and a head and so on. These are non-negotiables, generally. We are essentially subject to the laws of physics and the laws of nature. And I think that's a neutral thing. It's not a bad thing or a good thing. You don't have to impose any ethical value on it. The world is just the way it is. And when it comes to the choices that we have in life, I think we do have a high degree of freedom in our lives, and I think you're right. And I think what you're also very right about, and I really appreciate this, is that we can come out and say very simply that there are some aspects of life that we cannot change and that we do not have free will in, and there are other aspects of life where we do have free will in, and that is all. It can be simple like that. Whereas if you spend time with the philosophers, for example, it's like they want a black and white answer. It's either we have total free will or we don't have free will. And my thoughts on this is why this drama? There's no need for it. It's very clear. We have free will in some areas and other areas we do not. I also want to add, Anna, if you don't mind, it also helps not to do readings a lot. So if you're asking the same question several times, and I think with something specific like the timeline of an event, it is potentially confusing.

Anna: How can you use Lenormand to navigate our destiny? Which sort of links to what we've just talked about, but more broadly and in a practical way, because for example, someone just introduced to Lenormand might ask, okay, so can I use it at the practical level? What is the benefit of Lenormand reading? What can I get out of it? Put it this way. 

Layla: Absolutely. You can read Lenormand for any situation. And this ties into what we were saying earlier about the cards having an essential meaning and essence, and then you can stretch that essence to answer any question or area. So similarly, it's going to help you with your life questions, with the guidance that you're seeking in your day-to-day life or every so often in your life. And I don't think Lenormand is different from any other deck or actually any other system of divination for that matter. It's really setting your intention while you're doing a reading and you are seeking guidance and you are going to interpret the cards in a way that is helpful with regards to this guidance. So I do not think that Lenormand is different in this way. And again, it is a very flexible deck that can be used in all sorts of wonderful ways.

Anna: And it's so much fun, I have to say.

Layla: I have to agree. It is very fun to get immersed in all of the combinations and all of the lines and all of the things you can read in a Tableau, even a smaller Tableau.

Anna: I have to say that since I was introduced to Lenormand and I got my deck and I started studying it and understanding how it works, I put my Tarot deck away. I never came back to it because I find that I'm for some reason much more connected with Lenormand than with Tarot. And I'm getting a lot of information. I am getting a story. As you said, we're looking at cards in combination. So I'm getting a story developing and I just find it such fun that I haven't gone back to Tarot.

Layla: It has been my experience as well, Anna, that once I landed on Lenormand, I didn't really go back to the Tarot, although I read Tarot very well. And I practice other divination methods well as well. But yes, there is something very engaging with Lenormand. And I think there are two main reasons for this. There could be more or we can expand on all these ideas, but mainly I think is that Lenormand is plain. It speaks in plain language. So the symbols are very direct and they're very easy to associate with. So from the get-go, there is a direct connection with the symbol, which is really not a symbol. It's a thing a lot of the time. And another reason that Lenormand I think is really engaging is because of that Tableau-style approach to reading layouts, which can be a very immersive experience where you are looking at the lines and the combinations, the cards in a column, the cards in a row, in diagonals, all sorts of interesting connections between the cards. So it can be very immersive. And I think that's also part of the reason why it's engaging in the way that you're saying. And fun.

Anna: Yes, absolutely. And you can also do shorter spreads with just a few cards. So there is some variety, depending on your question and your intention. You can use three-card spread, nine-card spread, portrait, open book. So there are quite a few different spreads that we can use. Lovely. So, Layla, could you please tell us a bit more about your programs, your teachings, courses, and obviously I will include all the links in the show notes and on my website so people can find you. But could you please give us a brief overview of your offerings?

Layla: Well, thanks for this opportunity, Anna. And it is my mission or one of my missions to share the word more about Lenormand. I think it is a wonderful deck that deserves more popularity, if we could put it this way. So Lenormand Reader is really there to close a gap, like I said earlier, that there doesn't seem to be an in-depth comprehensive end-to-end system to master Lenormand. So that was my mission through Lenormand Reader. So I offer the Master Guides, which are the blueprint for everything else I do. And they are what I worked on from the very beginning of my journey with Lenormand. I offer them individually and together. I also have recently put them on Amazon for the print version because they're quite big I have to say, they're plus 400+ pages each. So they're very dense. I also offer the courses. So I have a basic introductory course for people who really have no idea what Lenormand is and just want to get, you know, they want to dip their toes.

And I offer the Certification Program, which is the end-to-end program. And this program has components that you can take individually or together as part of the Certification. So they are the Master Lenormand Cards and Combinations. This is the course that focuses on card meanings and card correspondences and combinations. And then there is the Lenormand Layouts and Interpretation Techniques. This is the second master course that focuses on layouts and how to do layouts and what are the Lenormand techniques. And then I have Certification Program modules that are focused on, you know, the ethics, you know, how to do readings, sort of, or yet yourself around these bigger questions. And so all three components can go into the Certification Program. So these are my main offerings.

But I also offer a Community. I have a community online where we share readings and we interact online. And as part of the community, there are Workshops and Masterclasses. So these, I would say, are a great way to get to know me. These are live classes. They are free for people in the Community and in the Certification Program. But if you just want to take a one-off masterclass, you know, these are great too. And in these masterclasses, we focus on a specific topic and we dive more deeply into it. So a lot of students find it helpful because it adds more. So in a nutshell, these are my offerings.

Anna: Thank you. Thank you so much. Well, Layla, this has been really a very interesting conversation, very enlightening and answering many of my questions and hopefully many questions that my listeners might like to ask. And obviously, I will include all the links in the show notes and on my website, including links to your courses so that people can sign up if they wish to and just or just use your free resources. So everything will be there. Is there any final thought you would like to share with our audience before we close?

Layla: Thank you so much for this, Anna. It was wonderful speaking and it's really, it's always a great opportunity to flesh out some of these important ideas that guide our practice. I think every so often it's great to have a conversation about these things. I want to encourage people to explore Lenormand. It is really a wonderful practice that can enhance not just your Lenormand practice, but it might enhance your other divination methods or other modalities that you work with because it's so different and unique. So yes, that's my mission. And I invite people to jump on this Lenormand train.

Anna: Lovely, beautiful. Thank you so much, Layla. It's been such a pleasure to have you

on Quantum Living. Thank you so much, Anna. It was a pleasure to speak with you as well.

Thank you. That's all for today, folks. I hope you enjoyed this episode. I would much appreciate if you could spare a moment and post a review on Apple Podcasts or on my website at QuantumLivingPodcast.com, where you can also read the full show notes, guest info, reviews, and more. I'm your host, Anna Anderson. I look forward to connecting with you in the next episode of Quantum Living. Until then, keep your vibrations high and be well.

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